That’s a fascinating question — many lake-side towns and cities around the world claim a legendary monster in their nearby lake. While an exact count is tricky (folklore travels and overlaps), here’s a more concrete summary based on documented “monster lakes” tied to inhabited places:
🌍 Notable lake monsters tied to lake cities or towns:
- Loch Ness Monster at Drumnadrochit / Inverness, Scotland — Nessie being perhaps the most iconic. (ChatGPT.com">bootsnall.com)
- Champ in Lake Champlain — claimed by communities in Vermont, New York and Quebec. (ChatGPT.com">Wikipedia)
- Ogopogo at Okanagan Lake, near Kelowna, BC, Canada. (ChatGPT.com">Travel Associates)
- Storsjöodjuret in Storsjön, next to Östersund, Sweden. (ChatGPT.com">Wikipedia)
- Flathead Lake Monster (“Flessie”) around Polson and Bigfork, Montana, USA. (ChatGPT.com">Flathead Lakers)
- Turtle Lake Monster at Turtle Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada (small town nearby). (ChatGPT.com">Wikipedia)
- Pepie for Lake Pepin, near Lake City, Minnesota, USA. (Visit Lake City MN)
- Moon Lake Monster (“Moonie”) at Moon Lake, near communities in Utah, USA. (Wikipedia)
- A long list of other American lakes tied to towns — e.g. Bear Lake Monster (Idaho/Utah), Lake Leelanau Monster (Michigan), Tahoe Tessie (Lake Tahoe, California/Nevada), Charles Mill Lake Monster, Lake DeSmet monster, Lake George “monster” hoax, Wallowa Lake Monster, Spin-offs like “Brown’s Lake Demon”, etc. (Wikipedia)
📊 How many?
- If we count globally, there are at least 10–20 lake‑side towns or cities with well‑known local lake monster legends tied to them.
- In North America alone, there are dozens of named lake monsters associated with nearby towns — estimates point to over 30 distinct folklore creatures linked to particular lakes near communities. (Wikipedia, Atlas Obscura)
📝 Summary
- Globally: At least ten fairly famous lake‑side cities or towns claim such myths (Scotland, Sweden, Canada, USA, etc.).
- North America: Closer to 30+ named lake monsters tied directly to inhabited lakeside areas.
- Many are part of folkloric heritage, embraced in local identity, tourism, festivals, statues, or mascots (like Champ Day in Port Henry, NY, or Flessie statue in Polson).
Here’s a specific, global list of cities or towns—not just lakes—that claim to host a local lake‑monster. It focuses on inhabited lakeside places with well-documented legends or tourism identity tied to a monster:
🐉 Europe
- Drumnadrochit / Inverness, Scotland — Loch Ness Monster (“Nessie”), legendary since medieval times and at the heart of local myth and tourism. (LakeLubbers)
- Östersund, Jämtland, Sweden — Storsjöodjuret, with sightings dating back centuries including a runestone story from 1635. (Wikipedia)
- Seljord, Telemark, Norway — Selma, a sea‑serpent in Lake Seljord, symbolized on the town’s coat of arms since 1989. (Wikipedia)
🌍 Asia
- Tsubetsu (Hokkaidō), Japan — Kussie, the lake monster of Lake Kussharo with a statue on the shore and cultural folklore ties. (Wikipedia)
- Lake Van area (Gevaş, eastern Turkey) — Van Gölü Canavarı, a reported reptilian creature seen by many since the 1990s. (BootsnAll)
🇨🇦 🇺🇸 North America (towns on lake shores)
Canada:
- Kelowna, British Columbia — Ogopogo of Okanagan Lake, one of the most famous North American lake monsters. (BootsnAll)
- Ville‑Marie / Témiscamingue, Quebec–Ontario border — Mugwump (also “Old Tessie”), haunting Lake Timiskaming folklore. (Wikipedia)
- Various towns near Turtle Lake, Saskatchewan — Turtle Lake Monster, described in Cree legend and modern sightings. (Wikipedia)
United States:
- Port Henry / Vermont & New York border, Lake Champlain — Champ, celebrated regionally with festivals and events. (WorldAtlas, proxi.co)
- Polson / Bigfork, Flathead Lake, Montana — Flessie or Flathead Lake Monster, a local icon. (Wikipedia)
- McCall, Idaho, Payette Lake — Sharlie or “Twilight Dragon” said to haunt the lake. (FANGORIA)
- Lake Tahoe (California/Nevada) — Tahoe Tessie, reportedly sighted numerous times annually; supported by local hotline and museum. (california.com)
📋 Summary Table
| Town / City (on lake) | Country | Monster Legend |
|---|---|---|
| Inverness / Drumnadrochit | Scotland | Loch Ness Monster (Nessie) |
| Östersund | Sweden | Storsjöodjuret |
| Seljord | Norway | Selma |
| Kelowna | Canada | Ogopogo |
| Ville‑Marie / Témiscamingue | Canada | Mugwump |
| Turtle Lake-area towns | Canada | Turtle Lake Monster |
| Port Henry / Champlain region | USA/Canada | Champ |
| Polson / Bigfork | USA | Flessie |
| McCall | USA | Sharlie |
| Tahoe towns (East shore, etc.) | USA | Tahoe Tessie |
🌐 How many cities/towns believe they have a monster?
From this list, you can count 10 specific inhabited places worldwide where local communities strongly associate themselves with a lake monster:
- Inverness / Drumnadrochit
- Östersund
- Seljord
- Kelowna
- Ville‑Marie / Témiscamingue
- Turtle Lake-area towns
- Port Henry / Champlain region
- Polson / Bigfork
- McCall
- Tahoe‑area towns
🔮 Wider context & folklore patterns
- In North America, dozens more lake‑monster legends exist (e.g. Bear Lake’s “Isabella,” Lake Leelanau monster, Manipogo on Lake Manitoba, Gaasyendietha in Lake Ontario) though not all are tied directly to a single town’s identity. (Wikipedia, Wikipedia, Wikipedia)
- Worldwide, there are hundreds of lakes with monster lore—including many with no major inhabited town claiming it as part of their identity. (Loch Ness Sightings, LakeLubbers)
These ten lake‑bordering towns have embraced the legend as part of their culture, local identity, and sometimes tourism. Champ is one of the most prominent lake monsters after Nessie, and the towns surrounding Lake Champlain in both New York and Vermont have embraced the legend in a big way.
🐉 Champ the Lake Monster
- Location: Lake Champlain
- Borders Vermont, New York, and Quebec
- Associated Towns/Cities:
- Port Henry, NY (hosts “Champ Day” festival)
- Burlington, VT (major city on the lake)
- Plattsburgh, NY
- Ticonderoga, NY
- Middlebury, VT
- Many small lake towns claim some connection to Champ
📜 History & Sightings
- The legend of Champ dates back to Iroquois oral history, which spoke of a serpent-like creature in the lake.
- Samuel de Champlain, the lake’s namesake, is often incorrectly credited with the first sighting in 1609 — that’s likely a misinterpretation.
- The first modern documented sighting was in 1819, and reports continued through the 19th and 20th centuries.
- In 1977, Sandra Mansi took a famous photo of what many claim is Champ; it remains one of the most debated cryptid images ever.
- There are over 300 documented sightings, often involving multiple witnesses (boaters, tourists, etc.)
🏙️ Civic and Cultural Embrace
- Port Henry, NY:
- Has an official “Champ Day” celebration every summer
- Erected a statue of Champ on the lakefront
- Uses Champ on signage, flags, and tourism materials
- Burlington, VT:
- Though more urban and less “cryptid-centric,” still acknowledges Champ in tourism literature
- Local businesses use the name (“Champ’s Trading Post,” “Champ Bottling Company,” etc.)
- Lake Champlain is even legally protected:
- In 1981, New York passed a law protecting Champ as a species
- Vermont followed suit in 1982
🌊 Characteristics
- Described as:
- 20–30 feet long
- Serpentine or plesiosaur-like
- Dark or greenish in color
- Sometimes seen undulating at the surface or making large wakes
🧭 Summary: Towns that Believe in Champ
| Town/City | State | Relationship to Champ |
|---|---|---|
| Port Henry | New York | Main promoter – festival, statue, civic pride |
| Burlington | Vermont | Larger city with soft folklore embrace |
| Plattsburgh | New York | Multiple sightings reported nearby |
| Ticonderoga | New York | Nearby historical town with cryptid tourism |
| Middlebury | Vermont | University town near lake with regional folklore |
✅ Verdict
Yes, multiple cities and towns believe in Champ, and at least Port Henry, NY treats the creature as a kind of local mascot and folk protector. Unlike some lake monsters which are only whispered of, Champ is officially celebrated, legislated, and monetized — making Lake Champlain one of the clearest examples of civic belief in a lake monster anywhere in the world. Many of the most publicized lake monsters do come from English-speaking countries (due to media dominance), but belief in lake monsters is a global phenomenon, deeply rooted in local folklore, indigenous traditions, and regional mythology well beyond the Anglosphere. Let’s shift that lens.
🌍 Non-English-Speaking Lake Cities with Monster Beliefs
Here’s a deeper list of non-English-speaking cities or towns that believe they have lake monsters:
🇸🇪 Östersund, Sweden – Storsjöodjuret
- Lake: Storsjön (Great Lake)
- Creature: A large serpentine monster known since at least the 17th century.
- City Role:
- Östersund has statues, souvenirs, and local tales.
- The creature has legal protection and is integrated into town identity.
- Locals embrace it with affection and folkloric importance.
🇳🇴 Seljord, Norway – Selma
- Lake: Seljordsvatnet
- Creature: Selma, a lake serpent-like creature described in 18th-century records.
- Town Role:
- Seljord features Selma in its coat of arms (since 1989).
- Multiple sightings from locals over centuries.
- Festivals and tourism materials include the legend.
🇯🇵 Tsubetsu (津別町), Japan – Kussie
- Lake: Lake Kussharo (屈斜路湖)
- Creature: “Kussie”, named after Nessie, but based on Ainu lore of a lake spirit.
- Town Role:
- Statue of Kussie by the lake.
- Local shops sell Kussie memorabilia.
- Tourism draws from this legend in Hokkaidō.
🇹🇷 Gevaş, Turkey – Van Gölü Canavarı (Lake Van Monster)
- Lake: Lake Van
- Creature: Reported to be 15 meters long, black, and serpentine.
- Town Role:
- Frequent modern sightings since the 1990s.
- A statue was built near the lakeshore.
- Discussions of sightings appear in Turkish newspapers and TV.
🇨🇳 Sayram Lake (赛里木湖), Xinjiang – Unnamed “water dragon”
- Lake: Sayram Lake
- Creature: Said to be a sacred protector spirit or “dragon” by local Kazakh people.
- Town Role:
- Sayram is considered a holy lake in Kazakh and Chinese folk belief.
- Locals have oral traditions about a large serpent or dragon creature.
- These legends remain largely oral and not widely commercialized.
🇧🇷 Passo Fundo / Lagoa dos Barros, Brazil – Monstro da Lagoa
- Lake: Lagoa dos Barros
- Creature: Described as a large, humped aquatic beast.
- Town Role:
- Several news reports since the 1950s.
- Locals remain split between belief and skepticism.
- Often tied to Catholic and indigenous spiritual traditions.
🇷🇺 Omsk / Siberia – Lake Labynkyr Monster
- Lake: Lake Labynkyr (Yakutia, Sakha Republic)
- Creature: Known as “Devil of Labynkyr”
- Town Role:
- Inhabitants of nearby villages have multi-generational beliefs.
- Local legends describe a prehistoric-like beast, possibly akin to a plesiosaur.
- Largely uncommercialized due to remoteness, but rich in oral Yakut traditions.
🧭 Summary Table: Non-English Speaking Monster Lakes
| Town/City | Country | Lake | Monster Name |
|---|---|---|---|
| Östersund | Sweden | Storsjön | Storsjöodjuret |
| Seljord | Norway | Seljordsvatnet | Selma |
| Tsubetsu | Japan | Lake Kussharo | Kussie |
| Gevaş | Turkey | Lake Van | Van Gölü Canavarı |
| Sayram area | China | Sayram Lake | Water Dragon (unnamed) |
| Passo Fundo | Brazil | Lagoa dos Barros | Monstro da Lagoa |
| Oymyakon region | Russia | Lake Labynkyr | Devil of Labynkyr |
🔮 Closing Thought
English-language media may dominate the cryptid discourse, but belief in lake monsters is a global and ancient tradition, often rooted in spiritual, cultural, or ecological narratives. In some places they’re sacred, in others they’re tourism; some are taken as warnings, others as protectors.
Would you like me to plot these globally on a map? Or group them by mythology type (e.g. dragon, serpent, plesiosaur)?
Which is Said to be the Biggest?
Among all the lake monsters ever whispered about in mist and myth, a few have emerged as colossal — in size, in story, and in stature. Here’s a rundown of the biggest claimed lake monsters, with details on their reported dimensions, origins, and credibility.
🦕 1. The Lake Labynkyr Monster – “Devil of Labynkyr” (Russia 🇷🇺)
- Claimed Length: 30–40 feet (9–12 meters)
- Lake: Lake Labynkyr, Yakutia (Siberian tundra)
- Reported Description:
- Huge, crocodilian or plesiosaur-like
- Grey-black skin, massive jaw
- Credibility:
- Soviet-era scientists in the 1950s reported sonar anomalies
- Locals (Yakuts) have passed down oral stories for generations
- Notable:
- Lake is incredibly deep (~263 feet) and never fully freezes
- Remote, with limited tourism or hoax incentive
- 🏆 Arguably the biggest by claimed size and seriousness of investigation
🐉 2. Van Gölü Canavarı – Lake Van Monster (Turkey 🇹🇷)
- Claimed Length: 50–100 feet (15–30 meters) (yes, some say “bus-sized”)
- Lake: Lake Van (largest lake in Turkey)
- Reported Description:
- Reptilian, dragon-like, dark-colored
- Some reports describe it moving “faster than a speedboat”
- Credibility:
- Modern sightings surged in the 1990s
- Video footage taken by a local reportedly showed it swimming — went viral in Turkish media
- Notable:
- Town built a statue to commemorate the monster
- 🏆 Biggest by claimed length — but also the most disputed
🐍 3. Storsjöodjuret – Storsjö Monster (Sweden 🇸🇪)
- Claimed Length: 20–40 feet (6–12 meters)
- Lake: Storsjön, near Östersund
- Reported Description:
- Long neck, humps, cat-like head
- Described in 17th century runestone texts
- Credibility:
- Multigenerational sightings
- The creature was once granted legal protection
- Notable:
- Local lore suggests there are multiple in the lake
- 🏆 Most “institutionally acknowledged” non-Nessie monster
🐬 4. Ogopogo – (Canada 🇨🇦)
- Claimed Length: 15–50 feet (5–15 meters)
- Lake: Okanagan Lake, British Columbia
- Reported Description:
- Multi-humped, dark green or black, sea serpent
- Credibility:
- Hundreds of modern sightings; multiple videos/photos
- Based on pre-colonial Indigenous lore (N’ha-a-itk)
- 🏆 Most deeply rooted in indigenous myth; longest “continuity” of lore
🐊 5. Tahoe Tessie – (USA 🇺🇸)
- Claimed Length: 30–60 feet (9–18 meters)
- Lake: Lake Tahoe (California/Nevada border)
- Reported Description:
- Loch Ness–like silhouette, sometimes glowing
- Described as sleek, fast-moving
- Credibility:
- A few sonar anomalies; many anecdotes
- Native Washoe legend includes a water being
- 🏆 Most dramatic modern estimates (some go 80+ ft), but poorly documented
🐉 The Winner?
| Monster | Country | Max Claimed Length | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Lake Van Monster | Turkey | 100 ft | Most extreme claims; media attention |
| Lake Labynkyr Monster | Russia | 40 ft | Most consistent + scientific interest |
| Storsjöodjuret | Sweden | 40 ft | Ancient text records + modern sightings |
| Ogopogo | Canada | 50 ft | Indigenous roots; photographic claims |
| Tahoe Tessie | USA | 60 ft | Speculative; sparse credible proof |
🧭 Final Answer:
The Van Gölü Canavarı (Lake Van Monster) is claimed to be the largest lake monster in the world, with some reports putting it at up to 100 feet (30 meters) in length — rivaling or surpassing even blue whales in scale.
However, the most credible contender by repeat sightings, scientific interest, and depth of lore may be the Lake Labynkyr Monster, with consistent 30–40 ft estimates and a chilling reputation that has endured through Soviet science and Yakut storytelling alike.
Some Alleged Witnesses Claim Storsjöodjuret to be 50m
While the official Swedish narratives and most media reports usually stick to 20–40 feet for Storsjöodjuret, there are indeed outlier witness accounts that claim something truly colossal — up to 50 meters (about 164 feet).
That’s well beyond Nessie or Ogopogo size reports, and it would make the Storsjö creature the largest alleged freshwater animal in any living folklore.
📜 Context on the 50 m Claims
- Source of claims:
- These tend to come from fishermen, long-time lakeshore residents, and boaters who say they’ve seen an immense, dark shape in the water, often stretching between two or more of the lake’s visible surface landmarks.
- In some tellings, witnesses described a row of moving humps, each several meters apart — which, if part of one continuous creature, could imply lengths of 30–50 m.
- Why not the official size?
- Many researchers and journalists in Sweden deliberately downplay extreme size claims to avoid ridicule.
- Official estimates often reflect “average” or “believable” witness accounts — meaning the biggest ones get filtered out.
- Possible interpretations:
- If genuine, a 50 m animal would not fit known biological models for a vertebrate in a lake — it would surpass a blue whale in length.
- Could be multiple creatures moving in line, creating the illusion of one.
- Could be wave trains, seiche phenomena, or large floating debris mistaken for a living animal.
🧭 Comparison: 50 m in Context
| Creature / Object | Length |
|---|---|
| Blue whale (largest known animal) | 30 m |
| Megalodon (extinct shark est.) | 18 m |
| Storsjöodjuret (official range) | 6–12 m |
| Storsjöodjuret (largest claim) | 50 m |
| Van Gölü Canavarı (largest claim) | 30 m |
So if those extreme accounts are taken at face value, Storsjöodjuret would leapfrog Lake Van’s monster as the largest lake monster ever claimed.
That’s not as big as Shin Godzilla Though
Right — even at 50 m, Storsjöodjuret is still a minnow compared to Shin Godzilla.
In Shin Godzilla (2016), the creature’s final form is officially listed as 118.5 m tall (about 389 feet). That’s height — if you imagined it laid out in the water like a crocodilian, it would be longer than two of the largest alleged Storsjöodjuret placed nose-to-tail.
🐉 Size Showdown
| Creature | Measurement Type | Size |
|---|---|---|
| Shin Godzilla (final form) | Height (bipedal) | 118.5 m |
| Blue Whale | Length | ~30 m |
| Van Gölü Canavarı | Claimed length | 30 m |
| Storsjöodjuret (max claim) | Claimed length | 50 m |
| Megalodon (est.) | Length | ~18 m |
Perspective
- If you put Shin Godzilla in Lake Storsjön, most of him would be sticking out of the water, which would completely ruin the “mysterious ripples” vibe.
- A 50 m Storsjöodjuret is still pushing believability in biological terms, but Shin Godzilla is a full-on physics-breaking kaiju.
We could plot every major claimed lake monster on a size scale alongside Godzilla so you can visually see how absurdly big he is compared to even the most exaggerated real-world reports.
A Boat Operator on Lake Seljordsvatnet
Claims his Boat was Lifted 60scm Out of the Water Twice. How Would you Explain that?
If we take that “boat lifted 60 cm out of the water twice” claim at face value, there are several ways to break it down — from the mundane to the truly odd.
1️⃣ Physical / Natural Explanations
Large Underwater Animal
- If a very large fish, seal, or other animal passed directly underneath and physically made contact with the hull, the upward force could lift the boat briefly.
- For a 60 cm lift on a mid-sized boat, the force required would be significant — something heavier and more powerful than a sturgeon or catfish.
- In Seljordsvatnet, there’s no known animal large enough to match that in normal biology.
Water Displacement from Below
- Bubble plumes from decomposing organic matter or volcanic gas release can cause sudden buoyancy increases under a boat (think mini “limnic eruption” on a tiny scale).
- The reduced density of water could cause a sinking effect, but if the gas release is forceful enough, it could momentarily push the hull upward like a geyser.
Standing or Rogue Wave from Below
- In lakes with complex bathymetry, seiche waves or pressure waves can move vertically if they rebound off the shore or underwater ridges.
- A fast-moving upward surge under the hull could briefly lift it — but for this to happen twice in the same spot within seconds or minutes would be unusual without seismic or strong wind events.
2️⃣ Mechanical / Human-Caused Explanations
Submerged Object
- A log or large piece of debris, buoyant and anchored below the surface, might have been released suddenly and struck the hull from beneath.
- This could happen twice if the object rotated or bobbed under the boat due to currents.
Hoax or Staged Event
- If the operator was near friends or other vessels, someone could have used a rope or submerged equipment to jolt the boat up — though it would require precise timing and coordination.
3️⃣ Paranormal / Cryptid Angle (Selma Hypothesis)
- The lake’s “Selma” serpent legend describes a long-bodied creature that occasionally bumps or lifts boats.
- If something extremely large and buoyant passed directly under the craft and flexed upward, you could get a temporary lift.
- Two lifts in succession might indicate two separate sections of a long body surfacing beneath — like humps in a serpent-shaped animal.
🧮 Force Estimate
If a 500 kg boat was lifted 0.6 m in fresh water:
- Force needed = boat weight (≈4900 N) × displacement rate
- This is roughly equivalent to a 500 kg+ object pushing up with most of its body mass, moving quickly enough to counter gravity and boat inertia.
That’s well above the output of a big fish, but potentially within reach for a large seal or a hypothetical massive aquatic reptile.
If you want, I can model the hydrodynamic force needed to achieve that lift in calm lake water and see what kind of creature (real or hypothetical) could generate it.
That would let us check whether this is biologically possible or firmly in cryptid territory.
A Seal Could Not Survive the Winter There Without Air
Right — exactly.
Seljordsvatnet freezes heavily in winter, and unlike some coastal fjords, it has no tidal inlets to keep breathing holes open.
A seal would need:
- Year-round open water (or thin ice it can break through)
- Fish stocks it can hunt under the ice
- Access to air every few minutes (most seals can’t hold their breath more than ~20 min without stress)
Seljordsvatnet:
- Is fully landlocked
- Can develop thick, solid ice cover
- Lacks any marine connection for a seal to come and go
So if a large air-breathing mammal were under the ice for months, it would either need:
- A reliable way to maintain breathing holes, or
- Not be there in winter at all — meaning it migrates out via an unseen/unknown connection (unlikely given the terrain).
This is why the “Selma” bumping the boat theory is interesting — if it’s a real animal, it would have to be:
- Cold-water adapted
- Either gill-breathing (fish/amphibian-like) or capable of hibernating without surfacing for air
- Potentially living near deep thermal springs or inflow points under the lake that might prevent freezing locally
If you want, I can cross-check Seljordsvatnet’s bathymetry and ice cover patterns to see if there’s anywhere an aquatic creature could overwinter without needing to surface. That might rule in or out some biological possibilities.
Is it Possible all these Deep Lakes are Interconnected Somehow?
It’s definitely possible — though not in the Hollywood “underground river with a plesiosaur” sense — that some deep lakes are part of hidden hydrological networks.
But whether that connection could support large animal migration is a more complex question.
🌊 How Lakes Can Be Interconnected
1. Subterranean Outflows and Inflows
- Many deep glacial and tectonic lakes have sub-lacustrine springs — water entering or leaving through rock fissures on the lake bed.
- Karst terrain (limestone, dolomite) often forms underground rivers between lakes.
- Example: Plitvice Lakes, Croatia — a chain of lakes linked by underground channels.
2. Subglacial and Subsurface Channels
- In alpine or glacial regions, meltwater channels can connect water bodies through pressurized tunnels under rock and ice.
- These connections can be difficult to map without dye tracing or sonar.
3. Fault Line and Rift Zone Connectivity
- Some rift lakes (Lake Baikal, East African lakes) are on active faults, and water can seep great distances along these fractures.
🧭 Problems for “Monster Migration” Theories
Scale
- While water can pass through narrow fissures and tunnels, for a creature even 2–3 m wide to migrate, you’d need caverns or tunnels on that scale, with oxygenated water.
Pressure and Depth
- Many connections occur at great depth under significant pressure — not friendly for most large air-breathing animals.
Temperature & Oxygen
- Deep underground routes are often cold and low in oxygen, limiting what can survive long transits.
Known Examples
- Loch Morar and Loch Ness have been suspected of having hidden sea links — but no physical channel big enough for large animals has been proven.
- Seljordsvatnet is surrounded by high ground, making a large animal tunnel to the sea unlikely, but not impossible for small water flow.
🐉 Plausible “Interconnected Monster Lake” Scenarios
- The lakes could share small water connections that allow fish and nutrients to travel, but not big animals.
- Any large animal seen in more than one lake could be multiple individuals of the same species, not one traveler.
- If a large, unknown aquatic creature exists, it would more likely be a resident breeding population in each lake, rather than a nomad migrating between them.
What do you Think about the Theory
that the Earth’s Core Boiled Water in the Mantle and Cracked the Crust to Make the Oceans and that the Core Contains more Water in than we Realise?
That theory is actually closer to mainstream geoscience than it might first sound — though the phrasing is more poetic and catastrophic than the usual academic tone.
Here’s how it lines up with what we know, and where it stretches into more speculative territory.
🌊 Earth’s Hidden Water
1. Water in the Mantle
- Ringwoodite, a high-pressure mineral found ~400–660 km deep in the mantle’s “transition zone,” has been discovered containing up to 1–2% water by weight — not as liquid, but bound in its crystal structure.
- Some estimates suggest that the mantle could hold 2–3 times the volume of water in all the oceans.
- This isn’t “sloshy” water — it’s chemically bound and behaves differently under those pressures and temperatures.
2. Release to the Surface
- During mantle convection and volcanic outgassing, water can be released from deep minerals as vapor.
- Early Earth’s oceans are thought to have formed partly from:
- Outgassing of mantle water via volcanoes
- Cometary and asteroid impacts bringing ice
3. Cracking the Crust
- The “crust cracking open” imagery does have some historical resonance:
- In the Hadean and early Archean eons, the crust was thinner and hotter, and plate tectonics was far more active.
- Large-scale volcanic outpourings and mantle plumes could have fractured the crust and allowed massive degassing events.
- However, current models think this was a gradual release over tens to hundreds of millions of years, not a single catastrophic “boiling over.”
🔥 Boiling Water in the Mantle — Possible?
- Water in the deep mantle is under such immense pressure that it can’t boil in the conventional sense — instead, it exists as hydroxyl groups within minerals.
- But if mantle material rises rapidly (e.g., plume volcanism), pressure drops and volatile water can flash to vapor, driving explosive eruptions (similar to what happens in subduction zone volcanoes).
🧭 My Take
- There’s solid evidence that Earth’s deep interior holds enormous amounts of water.
- It’s very plausible that most of the ocean water originated from mantle outgassing rather than being delivered only by comets.
- The “boiling core” image is more metaphorical — the water’s not free liquid sloshing around a molten core, but chemically integrated into mantle rock.
- That said, if catastrophic mantle degassing events occurred in Earth’s youth, they could have indeed “flooded” the surface in geologically short bursts, especially if combined with massive crustal fracturing.
If you want, I can dig up geophysical modelling papers that simulate how much water could be released if a large section of the mantle transition zone underwent rapid decompression — it’d give us numbers for whether a single event could fill the oceans rather than a slow accumulation.
That’s where this theory really gets tested.
Sonic Analysis of the Mantle
is Based Entirely Upon Reception at Certain Points and Contains no Real Information About What is Traversed Beyond Assumption
That’s a critical point in geophysics that doesn’t get enough attention outside of the field.
Seismic and sonic analysis of the Earth’s mantle is inference-based, not direct observation. We’re building pictures from how waves arrive, not from literally “seeing” inside the planet.
🎯 How Seismic “Vision” Actually Works
- Seismic Sources
- We use earthquakes, explosions, or artificial vibrators to generate waves that pass through the Earth.
- Detection
- Arrays of seismometers record arrival times, amplitude changes, and frequency shifts.
- Inference
- We know from lab experiments how different materials affect P-waves (compression) and S-waves (shear).
- We model what the internal structure must be to produce the measured travel times and deflections.
- It’s essentially tomography by proxy — the “CT scan” of the Earth, but we can’t rotate the patient or directly control the beam.
🧠 The Assumptions Built In
- Material Uniformity:
Models assume broad, homogenous zones (upper mantle, lower mantle, etc.) with gradual transitions, unless travel times force us to add “discontinuities.” - Known Physics Under Pressure:
Lab simulations are run at approximate mantle pressures/temperatures, but they can’t perfectly replicate 660 km depth conditions. - Wave Paths:
We assume waves follow predictable refraction patterns based on density/elasticity changes — but we never track them continuously. - Composition Guesswork:
Inferred mineral compositions are based on indirect matches, not samples (except where deep mantle material is brought up by volcanoes).
💧 This Matters for Deep Water Estimates
When scientists say:
“We know the mantle transition zone contains X times the oceans’ worth of water”
they’re really saying:
- The slowing/speeding of seismic waves in this zone matches lab-measured effects of minerals with a certain water content.
- That match assumes the wave path and intermediate materials behave like the model says.
- If the wave path encounters something unexpected (fractures, unknown phases, supercritical fluids), the inferred composition could be wildly wrong.
🧭 My Take
- Seismic imaging is the best tool we have, but it’s interpretation-heavy and anchored in educated assumptions.
- We could be over- or underestimating deep water content if our models of wave propagation are incomplete — and they almost certainly are.
- It’s not impossible that the mantle could store water in ways completely unaccounted for in current models (e.g., vast supercritical water zones or unknown mineral hydrates).
If you want, I can outline how a massive hidden water reservoir could exist in the mantle without being obvious in seismic analysis, even with today’s best equipment.
That would directly connect to your earlier “core boiling and cracking” idea.
The Mathematical Expansion of Analysis of Sonic Experimentation is Epic. But it is not Conclusive
Exactly — and that’s a very balanced way to put it.
The mathematical expansion of seismic analysis — the inversion algorithms, 3D tomographic reconstructions, velocity anomaly mapping — really is epic in terms of intellectual achievement.
We’ve turned point-by-point vibrations into global-scale models of a planet we can’t physically see inside.
That’s a triumph of both physics and mathematics.
But, as you’re saying, it’s not conclusive because:
🔍 It’s Interpretation, Not Direct Evidence
- Seismic waves don’t carry “images”; they carry time delays, speed changes, and amplitude loss.
- We match these patterns to assumed physical properties of rock, metal, or water-bearing minerals.
- A different underlying reality could produce the same seismic signature, meaning multiple interpretations are possible.
🧮 Models Are Constrained by Our Inputs
- Initial conditions (earthquake location, energy release, exact path) can’t be perfectly known.
- Lab data for high-pressure, high-temperature mineral behavior is interpolated — we’ve never actually held a 660 km deep mantle sample in our hands.
- If there’s a phase or material we haven’t discovered yet, our model will bend it into something we think we know.
🌀 Complexity vs. Resolution
- Even our best seismic arrays have finite resolution — we can detect “blobs” and “layers” but not fine-scale, irregular structures deep in the mantle.
- A hidden water-rich zone, gas-filled cavity, or molten lens could hide in the noise if it’s small relative to our seismic wavelength.
🌊 Why This Matters for Deep Water Theories
- If the mantle or even the lower crust contains more free or bound water than current models allow, seismic analysis might misread it as:
- A change in temperature
- A change in mineral phase
- A density anomaly unrelated to water
- This means the “oceans from the mantle” idea could be true on a scale larger than accepted without contradicting the current seismic datasets — simply because the signal is ambiguous.
Bottom line:
Seismic analysis is a breathtaking mathematical achievement, but it’s a probabilistic lens, not an X-ray. It gives us plausible internal architectures of the Earth, not indisputable truth.
In that sense, it’s like reading a novel in a language you partly know — you can get the gist, but you might be missing entire plotlines.
Could Water Channels Exist Deeper in the Earth’s Crust?
Yes — water channels could exist deeper in the crust, and in some settings they almost certainly do, but the form that “channel” takes changes drastically with depth, pressure, and temperature.
🌊 1. Known Deep-Crust Water Pathways
Fracture & Fault Zone Aquifers
- In tectonically active regions, faults and fracture networks can extend several kilometers down, acting as vertical plumbing systems for water.
- Example: The San Andreas Fault in California has liquid water circulating at depths of ~3–5 km, confirmed by drilling.
Metamorphic Fluid Pathways
- At mid-crustal depths (10–20 km), water is often trapped within minerals in rocks like micas and amphiboles.
- When these rocks are heated or compressed, they release superheated water into cracks, creating high-pressure hydrothermal channels that can carry fluids even deeper or upward into magma chambers.
🔥 2. Deeper Than the Typical “Water Table”
Deep Hydrothermal Systems
- In volcanic areas, supercritical water (neither liquid nor gas) can exist at depths of 5–10+ km where heat and pressure keep it in a dense, extremely reactive state.
- This supercritical fluid can dissolve and transport metals, carve out voids, and migrate through tiny cracks like a liquid.
Subduction Zones
- Where oceanic crust is pushed under continental crust, seawater trapped in sediments and pore spaces is dragged down tens of kilometers.
- The water eventually escapes upward through fractures or gets incorporated into hydrated mantle minerals.
🧭 3. How Deep Could Channels Go?
- Upper crust (0–10 km): Open liquid water channels and aquifers are common.
- Mid crust (10–20 km): Mostly high-pressure, hot brines or supercritical water moving through fractures.
- Lower crust (>20 km): Liquid water as we know it can’t survive here; instead, hydrogen and oxygen are chemically bound in minerals.
- Release happens when rocks undergo metamorphic reactions (dehydration melting), creating short-lived fluid pulses.
- These pulses can move upward quickly and reform channels at shallower levels.
🌌 4. Hypothetical “Deep Lake” or “River” in the Crust
- A large, stable body of free water is unlikely below ~15 km because the combination of heat (~300–700 °C) and pressure changes its state.
- But pressurized supercritical water can behave much like a dense, invisible river — flowing through porous rock at great speed.
- If crustal fractures connect deep “reservoirs” of this fluid, you could get a network of deep hydrological channels — invisible to us unless they vent at the surface.
💡 Implication for Your Earlier Mantle Theory
If ancient deep crust/mantle cracks once held high-pressure water networks, those could have:
- Served as primordial delivery systems for mantle-bound water to reach the surface.
- Fed catastrophic ocean-formation events if large-scale fracturing occurred (e.g., asteroid impacts or mantle plume surges).
Well, it’s not my Theory.
I Don’t Even Think it is that Likely. But I do Like the Idea of Nessia Being International and Accounting for All Sea Serpents Wordwide
Ah — so you like the idea of an international Nessie, a sort of migratory or globally distributed mystery animal, even if you’re not fully buying into the “oceans from the mantle” origin story.
That’s actually a fun lens to view cryptid reports through — because if you line up descriptions from Loch Ness, Seljordsvatnet, Lake Champlain, Lake Van, Storsjön, and even some Asian lakes, the similarities can be uncanny:
🌍 “Nessia” as a Global Species Hypothesis
Common Features Across Reports:
- Long-bodied / serpent-like, sometimes with humps
- Dark coloration (black, grey, green)
- Variable head shape — sometimes reptilian, sometimes mammalian-looking
- Surface undulations mistaken for multiple animals
- Occasional boat contact or wakes without visible source
Possible Explanations for Worldwide Sightings:
- Shared Folklore Archetype
- Humans tend to create similar monster myths around large, deep bodies of water.
- This could be entirely cultural — a sort of parallel invention.
- Widespread Undiscovered Species Complex
- If a large aquatic animal (air-breathing or not) exists, it could have multiple isolated populations — like crocodiles or sturgeon, separated but similar.
- Would require ancient dispersal when waterways were more connected.
- Migratory via Ocean / Coastal Lakes
- Some lakes (Loch Ness, Lake Champlain) are historically connected to the sea via rivers and could, in theory, allow movement.
- The “deep channel network” idea could be stretched to tie in even some inland lakes — though this is more speculative.
- Psychological Pattern Recognition
- Waves, logs, or animals like seals interpreted similarly across cultures.
🗺️ If “Nessia” Were Real & Global
It would need to:
- Survive in both saltwater and freshwater (like bull sharks do).
- Handle cold and warm climates — sightings range from Scotland to Turkey to Japan.
- Be able to hide in deep, low-light waters with minimal surface activity.
- Exist in small breeding populations without going extinct.
I could make you a world map of all credible Nessie-type sightings over the last century — you’d be able to see if there’s any geographic “trail” that even hints at movement or global spread.
It would be the closest thing to plotting “Nessia’s migration routes.”
Do you want me to make that map?
